Emily Mogic + Cheryl Downes

Cheryl Downs + Emily Mogic

Life in the media usually means you spend a significant amount of time on the sidelines watching other people play and telling other people’s stories. The season is often spent in the freezing cold, week in and week out, while you try to find new and creative ways of showcasing and exposing the game you love.

Emily Mogic is one of the premier photographers in Australian women’s football, while Cheryl Downes is sought after for her commentary and opinion about the women’s game.  Indeed, as a team they are a formidable partnership. Their partnership is not restricted to life in the game, outside of football they have a marriage that solidifies their passion and belief in equality for all people. So, how did they become involved in the women’s Game and what drives them? Football is. sat with Emily and Cheryl over a coffee and chewed the fat about football, life and how we are all connected through seeking opportunity for all.

Football is:

How did you get involved in football?

Emily:

'In football, it’s probably my fault as part of a football family, with Matthew Spiranovic being my cousin. I was doing photography at night school, and wanted to shoot a project as a comparison between men’s and women’s football, given that Laura Spiranovic played for Victory. So, I did a project focusing on Laura, at university working two jobs, driving everywhere, training and whatnot, and starting travelling to her games to work on my portfolio. It was winter, and I remember standing out there taking photos of women’s football and having an absolute ball. And so, I passed the folio and I just kept shooting, and Cheryl would come along with me to the games.'

Cheryl:

'I’d sit there by myself and start thinking about tactics even at that point - just thinking about what could I do with us always being advocates for women in any sport. But just the family connection, and just the love of the game of it, it’s such a fascinating game to watch. You can see the growth, you could see the growth back then and you can really see the growth now, so I think it was a great opportunity. So, I just wanted to do something to get involved and help, rather than just sit there and be passive.'

Football is:

Cheryl, from the point of view from getting into the media side of it, were you always involved in media beforehand?

Cheryl:

'No, not really. But I always liked writing and expressing my opinions, hopefully not in a shove it in your face kind of way. For me it was really just about trying to help challenge what was going on at the moment. I was involved a lot in hockey beforehand, and I used to do commentary of my own on our team, but not at a broader level or anything. So, it was interesting, just to do something. For me, it was initially writing about the comparisons between other sports. And then later on, it was about just trying to learn more about the players individually, and, I think one of the things that I was trying to work on was understand, what do people want to hear? And we didn’t even know the answer to that. I don’t know that we necessarily know the answer even still. But, do they want to know really basic, generic things about players, or do they want to know bigger things about the sport?'

Football is:

Emily, when you were studying photography, and you did this project, did you ever imagine you’d be involved in sport photography in such a major way?

Emily:

'I just enjoyed it so much, and then realised I was doing no good for anyone with these images sitting on my hard drive. And so I asked Ann Odong from The Women’s Game, “Could you use these images? I don’t know if they're any good.” And she looked at them and went, “Oh, my God, yes. Come, come and shoot as much as you want whenever you want.” And, I just really enjoyed it, and then it was a challenge for me – how can I capture this game in a way that is wonderful, and shows off the strength of the players and the contests. So, I really enjoyed that part of it.'

Cheryl:

'Then you got to the point where you had a dream, a goal, that you wanted –'

Emily:

'I wanted to shoot the Women’s World Cup, so that was my –'

Cheryl:

'And that seemed so far away…'

Emily:

'I got hooked pretty quickly, actually, in shooting South Melbourne, which was where Laura was. And I just remember thinking, I would love to shoot the Women’s World Cup. And it seemed like a really distant challenge. But, yeah, I managed to achieve that, and it was fabulous.'

Football is:

Yeah, that was the recent one in Canada…

Emily:

'Yeah, 2015. So, it’s already two years ago, and I’ve already got my sights set on France for 2019 as well.'

Football is:

'So, at that point where you're both starting to offer yourself up to the Women’s Game, or were you…'

Cheryl:

'Emily was first, and then I just thought, well, maybe I can help out too. The way that The Women’s Game started, it had a bigger presence around Sydney and New South Wales in general, but not really extending significantly into Melbourne or Victoria. We were able to help out in that respect, and to broaden its national coverage.'

Emily:

'You were coming to the games anyway, and, you were able to do some of the interviews with players, and that was great as well to learn a bit more about the players, not just watch them play.'

Cheryl:

'The players want to have a voice as well. It’s never been about Emily and Cheryl, so much as it’s been about what can we do to help these players who dearly love to play some kind of professional football, but they're a blank canvas in some respects, no one can see them if there's no publicity for them. So, just trying to do what we can to get them out there a little bit. And I don’t know how much we help sometimes, because there are some blocks along the way. We do what we can.'

Football is:

What do you think is one of the biggest frustrations with trying to be in that part of – this is probably a Pandora’s Box of a question. But, [laughter] what frustrates you most as a journalist and as a photographer working in the sport?

Emily:

'Some of it’s really basic stuff, like getting media passes. We’re not out to make a killing, it really is volunteer-type work you know, we want to promote the game we want to help. And sometimes it’s difficult to get access to be able to do that. It’s gotten a lot better though.'

Cheryl:

'Did we drive to Wollongong? Did we have a pass for that, or were we just hoping that we had a pass?'

Emily:

'No, we drove to Wollongong, hoping. Yeah, so, contacted the FFA in the lead up to it, but wasn’t quite sure until I got there.'

Football is:

What was that for?

Emily:

'That was when the Matildas played New Zealand before the 2014 Asian Cup. I had the email saying, ‘here’s my number, call me at the gate.’ But, that was ten-hour drive with probably $20K worth of equipment, and not knowing if you're going to be let in or not. [laughter]'

Football is:

Wow. Yeah, I’d be like stressing out majorly.

Emily:

That was my first international match that I shot, actually, and I was so nervous that the shots from the first half were terrible. Absolutely terrible. [laughter] And it wasn’t until the second half that I finally settled down and went, “Oh, it’s a friendly, just enjoy it.”

Cheryl:

'For me, it’s about probably working out when those decisions are going to be made, so it’s a bit more parallel to yours. It’s just doing the radio, or, for years and years I’ve been trying to push for livestreaming so you get some video coverage, because there's so few matches that you can see on TV. But the decisions aren’t made until the last moment, and they're not necessarily made in the best interest of the viewers or the players or at least we don’t understand how and why.

You know, it’s not going to cost that much more money, you're just going to be able to show a little bit more, and maybe that’s where the rights – they have sold it to ABC, or they’ve sold it to Foxtel. They don’t show more games, but it hinders the ability to distribute in another way. So, I think that’s one of the challenges. Never knowing until those last couple of weeks what you're doing for the season, so pre-planning is kind of hard.

Just pre-planning with the whole season with what you can do, instead of being reactive, we can just go to the games, we can just shoot stuff, if we can make a plan of where we know that will be supported.'

Football is:

So, then you go off to do the Women’s World Cup, what was it like to arrive there on the first day, picking all your media accreditations and so on. Share with us what it was like?

Emily:

'Well, the Canadians were very friendly, being welcomed by the volunteers, you know, it was all very well organized. At the airport, there were people greeting others for the World Cup. When we went to the stadium to pick up our media passes, things were well signposted. You line up, and it’s all done and ready for you. As an amateur photographer, then having that look into the world of professional sports photography was a real highlight, to see the media rooms, and all the photographers there, and all the different media outlets. You know, it was a real experience.'

Football is:

Cheryl? What were you doing during that time?

Cheryl:

'I was very busy writing analysis, match reporting, and interviews, and all sorts of stuff. It was amazing, but I very quickly went from thinking that my experience with football is sort of on the side, or something I volunteer in, where in reality my job is an IT consultant. And all of the sudden you wonder, hang on a minute, I’m interviewing the best players in the world, the best coaches in the world and I need to lift my game, to make sure I’m presenting as well as I can.

So, it’s kind of frightening in some respects, but I think you just get stuck in and do it, because you remember the reasons you're doing it. You're not doing it for yourself, so don’t worry about being so nervous. We would get calls in the late evening or early morning that people wanted to know information about what was going on. I would  be talking to radio back home in Australia, and it’s because no one else was getting that kind of information. I talk very easily once we start talking about football.'

Football is:

When you first started, did you ever imagine in your mind that you'd know so much about one sport and about the ins and outs of it, to be able to talk analytics about a game, and about player statistics? Did you ever imagine that you'd be able to reel that off?

Cheryl:

'Good question. I don’t know. I mean, I still think there's so much more to learn. As much as I sort of know bits and pieces, the game does change and evolve, as well.'

Emily:

'It’s been awesome watching these players develop, though. Because we've been now doing this for five or six years, and it’s, you know –'

Cheryl:

'The ones that were kids are now not kids.'

Emily:

'Yeah, and now seeing the new kids come along, like the young Matildas, and there is some stunning talent coming through, I think we’ve enjoyed watching those players get a run as well. When they take to the field for the first time, sometimes with their Aussie jerseys on, it’s kind of exhilarating and I hope they go well. So, you're kind of rooting for them, at least for me, behind my camera, when you're so close on the field. You're feeling for them, and getting to know them as they develop.'

Football is:

What would you like to see happen within this game in Australia, moving forward?

Cheryl:

'Probably respect for the amount of effort players put in. Respect comes in different ways. It’s how they're treated, how they're remunerated, it’s just, yeah, I think that’s probably the biggest thing. Maybe being a little bit more empowered, I think, because they're great athletes out there, and they're probably not really given the best opportunity they could get. And then you look at men’s football and the support that they’re given, whether or not it’s medically, financially, or any of those kinds of things. They have a lot behind them. There are so many people who put in so much effort for the women’s game who probably don’t get paid that money, it’s so much time that they put in.'

Emily:

'So, beyond what I would say are the basics of respect, I’d like to say the product of women’s football being marketed is also fundamental. I thought the inaugural season of the women’s AFL was amazing, I loved the ads, I loved going to the games, and, how they picked a few players and focused on their story. And I reflected on our experience – we came off the back of the World Cup and our performance there, we came off Rio – and yet, our product, and the name that we have for women’s football, wasn’t really used to inject into leagues we have domestically. And I thought that was a missed opportunity. So, I would love to see it marketed better, and have people come along and see what they know about it.'

Cheryl:

'Well, we had the best player in the world in my opinion at that time, Kim Little. She came and played at Melbourne City, and you go around saying “Kim Little’s here”, and people look at you like, “Who’s here?” Like, come and watch her play. And I know that there are other fantastic players around, but there are so many amazing players and we have that product here, but we don’t showcase that product. So, I think Emily is right, we need to look at what we have, someone like Steph Catley who won the campaign about who was going to be on the cover of the FIFA ’17.'

Football is:

Do you think there are any real benefits to the double headers in W-League and A-League?

Emily:

'I guess my personal opinion is that the double headers don’t work. And I don’t necessarily think the same audience is there for women’s football as it is for men’s. I don’t know if I would really want to watch two football games in a row, even – it’s just a long time. People are busy, so I think it needs to have a different angle on how you market that product. And I don’t know the answer to that.'

Cheryl:

'But if they want to do it, there are improvements that they could make anyway, in terms of whether or not it’s the change rooms, the times they put on the games…'

Emily:

'The gates, opening the gates.'

Cheryl:

'Yeah, so, that’s one of the things, again. It’s not about Cheryl and Emily, but in terms of the media getting access, we had a game at the Etihad. I think it was Victory playing against Canberra, so it was one of these famed double-headers, even though Canberra doesn’t have a A-League team. But anyway, we couldn’t get access easily to the game, and then there was another one at AAMI Park, they didn’t let spectators in until after the game had started.'

Football is:

Really?

Cheryl:

'Yeah. So, that, and there were more security guards in the stands than spectators. And I went up to one of them and I said, “Are the gates open?” And they're like, no, not until –'

Emily:

'Ten past five, or quarter past five.'

Cheryl:

'And I said, “The game starts at four, why are they being opened at halftime?” So you can do double headers, maybe there is going to be value to it at some point, but they just need to change a couple of those fundamentals.'

Football is:

Right. Well, and making it accessible is a big thing.

Cheryl:

'I think the women’s game can stand alone as well. I don’t think it needs to have that double-header scenario or atmosphere. I do think getting it visible is the crucial factor. Like, the players have got a great game out there, they're already doing their bit – they don’t need to do anything else. They’ll get better organically as time goes on, but it’s the media, and maybe commercial relationships that need to improve, because otherwise that product’s not going to get seen.'

Football is:

I know that Canada’s got quite an important role between the two of you, right? You got married in Canada?

Emily:

'We got married in Canada.'

Cheryl:

'Yes. [laughter]'

Football is:

Now, let me ask, what year?

Emily:

'2011? [laughter]'

Football is:

I love it.

Cheryl:

'What day? What month?'

Emily:

'It was November, and I think it was like the fifth. And the only reason why I know it was the fifth, because I forget dates'

Cheryl:

'Forgets my birthday. [laughter]'

Emily:

'Is that I, uh, had, we got those photos that came in this morning.'

Cheryl:

'Oh. [laughter]'

Emily:

'And because I use a naming convention on my photographs, the date of our wedding was in the photograph. I’m terrible with dates.'

Football is:

Right. I just put them in my diary and they pop up. That’s how I get around. [laughter]

Emily:

'Yeah. But we love Canada.'

Football is:

So, being partners on and off the pitch, how do you manage your work, football, real life and the relationship?

Emily:

'Yeah. We've got lots parts of our lives that are always interconnected, these threads intertwine, and Cheryl and I met at work as well. We’ve worked at probably four or five organisations together. So, I think we've obviously got a really good partnership. [laughter]

And a really good friendship. whether that’s in IT or sports media. I think we try and help one another, and I’m always amazed when Cheryl goes off and does these interviews with players and coaches. I’m too shy to go up and speak to people, I’m happy just making my pretty little photographs from behind the white line, so to speak. But I think we support one another, and that’s the key.'

Football is:

And when you think about the growth in the relationship over the years, what do you think is the kind of glue that has kept it together, from the point of view of, you know, you’ve got a son who is – how old is he now?

Emily:

'He’s 14.'

Football is:

'He’s 14. You’ve got a couple of dogs, cats. You’ve obviously worked outside of there, which, um –'

Emily:

'We’re best friends.'

Football is:

You're best friends.

Emily:

'Yeah, we’re best friends. We’re happy doing everything together. And that makes it easy.'

Cheryl:

'Even in the olden days, everything that we liked doing when we were friends, because we were friends for quite a long time before we made that next leap, it was – we just loved doing stuff together, and had similar interests. And outgoing – we’re probably both a little bit shy – but we want to go out and experience things together –'

Emily:

'To have a go at something, whether it’s traveling somewhere, or cycling, or just –'

Cheryl:

'Just being supportive as well. If you want to do something a little bit different, I’m right there with you.'

Football is:

So, when you have your normal work life, what sort of stuff do you do for work?

Emily:

'I’m retired now. [laughter]'

'I’m taking a break. But yes, we both work in IT…'

Cheryl:

'I think for you it’s important to be helping people.'

Emily:

'Yeah, it’s hard for me to answer that question.'

Football is:

Well, tell us a little bit about your work.

Emily:

'Yeah, I guess, if I focus on what I enjoyed about my previous role, I had a team of 60 people, and I really enjoyed helping them be successful – they developed web and mobile professions to tight timeframes and budgets. So, I was responsible for making sure they got there and in good shape. So, that’s probably eight separate teams, and I’m really trying to be a coach and leader that helps them achieve their goals. I enjoy bringing out the best of out of people. From the photography side, probably just trying to get the best out of myself. How can I create an image from what's happening here, that can really inspire either players or people or fans.'

Football is:

What sort of things interest you thematically outside of football?

Emily:

'Things that make you feel something. Whether that’s a good feeling or a bad feeling, when images evoke feeling to me, that’s important.'

Football is:

What have you found to be the thing you’ve learned about yourself the most during the whole process of work and play, and your relationship?

Emily:

'I haven’t thought about that yet. Um…'

Football is:

It’s a tough question.

Emily:

'It’s a tough question.'

Cheryl:

'I’ll answer it for you.'

Emily:

'Yeah.'

Cheryl:

'You answered it yourself, of course. I think it’s Emily’s capacity to learn new things, to do whatever is put in front of her. She can just pick up something and do it. She’s very, very intelligent, and very solution-focused – it’s not a problem, it’s just something that she can solve.'

Emily:

'I guess what I’m learning is that, just because you can be good at something, doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what you should do. So, do what you love, take the time to enjoy what you're doing, and think about what it is. Because time, it goes.'

Cheryl:

'I don’t like to take anything too seriously, I’m a pretty easygoing kind of person. So, you know, when I work as an IT consultant in different places, I love to go in and innovate and think of new ways of doing things, but I never want to be too serious about it. Just relax, have a bit of fun, don’t let the stress get to you. Just keep on going, and, you know, I think for me, a lot of people gravitate to that.'

Emily:

'Cheryl does a great job of that. I mean, she smooths those rough edges over. I know when you’ve helped me on photoshoots, it gives me the mental space to think about what I want to produce creatively.'

Cheryl:

'Because we’re a team.'

Emily:

'A great nature about her, I think, at work and outside of work, she makes people feel okay, which can be really tough in complex situations. Tough projects. Technical issues. You want that kind of calmness.'

Cheryl:

'And at the moment I’m working with a company where we’re developing software, and we've got a giant team in the UK, and I travel there frequently to work with them. It’s not necessarily just me, but it’s across the board, there's a sense that the Australians are too relaxed, and too easygoing, and not feeling the stress. But, we’re just different, and I think that recognising that people are different, that’s paramount. Diversity is great. Without diversity – and I think that’s a big thing for me as well – empowerment particularly in minority groups, or people who have traditionally been disempowered.'

Football is:

You’re talking about diversity, and compassion, and minorities. Where would you like the whole gay marriage debate in Australia to get to?

Emily

'It would be good if it would stop being a debate.'

Cheryl:

'It shouldn’t really be a question anymore. We’ve been involved it forever, and my enthusiasm to that political cause has probably dropped, because every day or every year, it seems like we’re talking about the same thing. It’s like, I feel really good this time, it’s going to happen, and it still doesn’t happen.'

Emily:

'And to me, it should just be such a non-issue anymore. That’s it. I refer to Cheryl as my wife. I’m introducing Cheryl to someone, or talking about her at work and she’s always my wife. And to me, that’s normal.'

Cheryl:

'And that’s someone else’s problem, if they can’t deal with it.'

Emily:

'I get that it’s very different for some people. I get that, because I've been there. I was married to a man, it didn’t cross my mind. So I understand, it seems a giant leap but it doesn’t need to be.'

Cheryl:

'I just want it to be over and done with. I think at some point it will be over and done with, and I just want the farce that’s going on at the moment to stop. But, I think probably one of the things, across all this time, because it can be as much talking about it as Cheryl being quite Zen, I can be quite political as well.'

Emily:

'She’s redheaded too, right.'

Cheryl:

'Redheaded. It’s like, just do it already.'

Emily:

'Just get it done.'

Cheryl:
'Get it done, stop fussing about it, it’s not going to change your life. Like, the people who are married, they don’t have to get divorced and go marry a same-sex person. You can stay married, we’re not changing it for you. We’re just changing it for us. And if you're a gay or lesbian person and you don’t want to get married, you don’t have to either.'

Emily:

'Yeah. I don’t understand who’s impacted negatively, I don’t see any of that.'

Cheryl:

'I also want that recognition with our families, and our families love us for who we are. I always tell the story of my grandfather, and how he’d ring up – and he’s passed away now – but he’d always ring up and say, “Cheryl, something’s wrong with my phone, can you fix it?” or his TV, or something like that. My grandfather was Russian, and so sometimes the language was a little bit different. And then eventually, a couple of years in he’d ring up and he’d say, “Cheryl, I need to speak to Emily.” Because he had a problem and he wanted Emily to solve it. I think that our ability to be recognised in our families. You can't ever get that back.'

Emily:

'It’ll happen. It’ll happen, it’ll get there.'

Cheryl:

'Yeah. But we should be able to have our wedding here. Or, not that we’re going to get married again or anything, but celebrate with our families, which is what everyone gets to do.'

Football is:

'The decision to get married in Canada. What was the main drive?'

Emily:

'Well it was allowed, for starters. It’s not an option here. We were sick of waiting. So, we didn’t want to have to have a politician tell us that it was now okay to do that here. So, we just had an opportunity to be in Canada, and organise it in advance, and that’s what we wanted to do. We just thought, we’re not going to wait for some Australian politician to say you can get married now.'

Cheryl:

'And they still had the law around the certificate of non impediment, which meant that effectively, you had a piece of paper from the Australian government to say you could legally get married somewhere else. But in Canada, they didn’t need that.'

Football is:

Cool. Last question: it’s the easiest question, I hope. Complete this sentence: Football is…

Cheryl:

'Family.'

Emily:

'Yeah. A hundred percent, it’s family.'

Football is:

It’s family?

Emily:

'Yeah. It’s how we started, literally, with family. It’s a family of friends that we now have. And, it’s family when we work together. So, it’s the one word for us.'

Cheryl:

'You look at social media, and just how many people – if you look at your Facebook friends, so many of our friends now on Facebook are football people. It’s people around the world. I’ve traveled around the world, and we've got different people who go off and look after you. You’ve never met them, you talk to them on Twitter, or you do podcasts with them. But, we’ve got an extended family of people who – we’ve got other interests, but you connect with them on football, and then it’s just bigger than that.'